Disillusioned JW

Joined

• started 27 topics
• posted 2,027 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Disillusioned JW

• 
  156

  Remembering Rutherford

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

  rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

  [220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  I agree that they brought the persecution upon themselves. Numerous WT books claim that governments attack the JW religion because of the JWs preaching Christ's kingdom. But the JW kingdom message includes the false message that the kingdom began in the year 1914 with Christ ruling invisibly in heaven and that Christ will soon destroy all human governments, and that all of the human governments are under the control of Satan and a part of his evil system.
  
• 
  34

  What Did You Think Of The Songs Sung At The Kingdom Hall?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i was younger we had song books and i recall that some of the songs were pretty catchy.

  then they revised it took some of those songs out, and added more.

  i have to admit some songs were pretty good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  hours ago

  Davros, I found the lyrics of your favorite song in the 1966 song book. It is song 105 and is called "This Is Jehovah's Day!" In reading the words of that song I now think it was my favorite JW song and that the "We Are Jehovah's Witnesses" song was my second favorite JW song, or perhaps tied with it. Song 105 (195 in 1984 song book) is one in which I memorized much of the lyrics while I was a JW.
  

  I also liked the lyrics of the chorus of songs 11, 13 (33 in 1984 song book), 59 (112 in 1984 song book), and 76 (143 in 1984 song book) of the 1966 song book.
  
• 
  1

  New on JW website

  by HawayMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  how many lies, half truths and deceptions can you count in these questions.

  .

  https://www.jw.borg/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/.

  1. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  I presume you mean ".org" instead of ".borg" (https://www.jw.borg/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/ is not an actual web page). A great pun and great point. I first when I say the link you posted I thought it was of a non-JW website, an actual website, about the Jehovah's Witnesses.
• 
  34

  What Did You Think Of The Songs Sung At The Kingdom Hall?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i was younger we had song books and i recall that some of the songs were pretty catchy.

  then they revised it took some of those songs out, and added more.

  i have to admit some songs were pretty good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Davros, I loved that song also. It was probably my second favorite song from the 1984 song book (and 1966 song book?). A new version of it (with the words you quoted) appears at https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/sing-out-joyfully/23-jehovah-begins-his-rule/ .
• 
  34

  What Did You Think Of The Songs Sung At The Kingdom Hall?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i was younger we had song books and i recall that some of the songs were pretty catchy.

  then they revised it took some of those songs out, and added more.

  i have to admit some songs were pretty good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  My most favorite WT song while I was a believing JW was the one which said "We are Jehovah's Witnesses", from the 1960s and 1984 song books. I even memorized its entire lyrics by heart - and to this day I still remember a considerable portion of the lyrics verbatum. Even though now I am an ex-JW (unofficially) and an atheist, I still really love that song.

  However portion of the lyrics of that song are now different (see https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/sing-out-joyfully/63-we-are-jehovahs-witnesses/ ). Compare the wording from the 1984 "Sing Praises" song book (Song 113: We Are Jehovah’s Witnesses!; see https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101984133 ) with the current one (https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/sing-out-joyfully/63-we-are-jehovahs-witnesses/ ) and Song 31: We Are Jehovah’s Witnesses! (see https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102009117 ) of the 2009 song book. I like the 1984 one much more, but maybe that is due to familiarity.

  Stanza 2 of the 1984 says:

  " ‘You’re my witnesses,’ God said.

  ‘Other gods you need not dread.

  I am God Jehovah,
  

  Sov’reign Lord and Head.
  

  I both saved and showed to you
  

  When no other gods you knew.

  Keep publishing my name near and far;
  

  Prove that my witnesses you are.’ "

  In contrast stanza 2 of the 2009 song book says:

  "Proudly we declare God’s name,

  Bearing witness to his fame.

  News about his Kingdom,
  

  Boldly we proclaim.
  

  Others thus may come to see
  

  Truth from God that sets them free.

  As they grow strong, their voices they’ll raise,

  Joining with us to sing his praise."

  Note also that the 1984 song includes a quote (at least partially) from the Bible but the 2009 one and the newer one (called "We're are Jehovah's Witnesses") from the song book called ' “Sing Out Joyfully” to Jehovah' do not.
• 
  156

  Remembering Rutherford

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

  rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

  [220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  In one of Rutherford's books I noticed that Rutherford lumped court judges as being a part of what he considered to be Satan's evil organization on Earth (or at least said court judges are bad in some way), yet Rutherford billed himself as a court Judge. It seems that he tried to have it both ways. Perhaps he was making a joke on intelligence of the JWs, by calling himself a Judge while in some literature saying judges are bad.

  In at least one book Rutherford (while using the word Nazi) sharply criticized the German Nazi government and thus made a strong political statement against not only a specific government but also against a specific political party. He even specifically criticized Hitler by name. In other literature he praised Hitler and Hitler's German government, while sharply criticizing Jews of the USA (specifically New York, New York?) and USA commerce (and/or big business). All of these statements were published by the Watch Tower (or Watchtower), yet the Watchtower claims it has always been politically neutral. That claim of always having been politically neutral is a bold faced lie, unless perhaps they were only making the claim about the Watchtower magazine and not the Watchtower organization. [I don't know if the Watchtower magazine itself broke political neutrality.] But maybe even the Watchtower magazine made criticisms of the Nazi government. I know that the Gold Age magazine (or the Consolation magazine) had at least one cartoon image which poked fun (and criticized) the Nazis.

  In some literature Rutherford praised the Jewish people in general, ones living in his time, but in other literature he did the opposite.

  How reliable do some his claims seem to you and how sincere does he seem to you in light of the above information?
• 
  156

  Remembering Rutherford

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

  rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

  [220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Hey, it doesn't take long to red my post. I made the long post for the benefit of others (JW lurkers).
  
• 
  156

  Remembering Rutherford

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

  rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

  [220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Hey minimus no one is forcing you to read my long posts. You don't have to read them if you don't want to. If you want brevity read an article in the most recent Awake! issue. Ha ha.

  I believe in being thorough. As a result I quoted all of the sections in the book that I considered relevant to claim of the anti-higher education message in the book (which is really not many sections). This topic thread is about remembering Rutherford, and for me the best reliable way to learn about Rutherford and draw attention to him is by reading his literature, analyzing it, and then quoting the literature. I no more than very little interest in hearsay claims about Rutherford. As Thomas Paine pointed out his book "The Age of Reason" hearsay testimony is very unreliable (or at least not provable). Also it is not admissible as evidence in the court of law in the USA, though a tribunal might accept it.
  

  The thing is, a number of the quotes are true (or at least mostly true) about college, such as certain classes teaching evolution as a fact. But hey, evolution really is a fact. Likewise some of the claims about what is taught in theological seminaries (but not the fundamentalist ones) are true, about the ministers stating disbelief in parts of the Bible. That is because much of the Bible has been shown by scholars to not be literally true. But Rutherford tries to make it seem that the claims made by professors about evolution and the seminary ministers claims about the parts of the Bible are false when in fact they are true (except that Rutherford twists some of the professors claims about evolution and some of seminary ministers claims about the Bible).
  
• 
  20

  "Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

  it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

  1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Phizzy, I thought my post made clear that I agree that the WT was describing not the resurrection of the person, but rather the creation of a copy/clone, including an implanted copy of the memory of the person. But here is something interesting: a number of science fiction stories of the "Outer Limits" TV show have the same idea, but with a human scientist making the recreation instead of God. In the stories there is sometimes a happy ending, providing nothing goes wrong in the replication process (and one tries to kill the recreated person). In the stories with the happy endings the ones who are near death are hopeful of being recreated-resurrected. After they are recreated they are happy about being recreated and think of themselves as being resurrected. Usually the recreation is in a robotic body, but sometimes it is in a human body. The endings tend to be happy when it is in an human body, and when a android gets recreated as an android. Maybe the Sci-Fi writers of these stories got the idea from the WT doctrine of resurrection.

  Bobcat makes a good point that the body we currently have is a copy (but with modifications) of the body we had several years ago, and the WT mentions essentially that in their literature. I wish I could remember which specific book where the WT says such very explicitly. He is also right about what he said of a PBS Nova episode; I know that because I saw the same episode and that segment of the episode about the transporter stuck in my mind. However that episode also dealt with the philosophical issue of whether the copy was or wasn't the same person as the original. Philosophers are not in agreement in this matter.
  

  We experience an ongoing process of cellular death and recreation/copying. We are thus already a clone of a prior version of our self. In as sense, we have already been recreated/resurrected! Maybe the key part of us which we identify the most with is the data of our mind and software program of our mind, along with the characteristics of our fleshy body. Maybe some of us can be satisfied with the idea that our data and mental program will be preserved and later implanted into a body which has a very close resemblance to our current body, with the newer body becoming youthful and perfect over time. Many of us, if a part of our body fails are willing to receive an organ transplant from another body (one of a different person) to replace failed body part. Once it is inside their body, they likely consider it a part of themselves. The hair I have on my head is not the same hair I had several months ago; is a copy of the hair I formerly had (though in many cases grown from the 'same' hair root (or skin cluster?). The outermost skin cells I have are not the ones I had months ago, for my prior ones have been sloughed off and are now dead and decayed. When my body gets wounded, including severely wounded, I very much appreciate it when it heals. The healed portion I consider to be a part of me, even though it is only a copy of that which had become damaged.
  

  If I could believe in such a re-creation/resurrection (in sense of the data/characteristics of myself being preserved and used to make a copy of my whole being) I might could be satisfied with it since I would know that my knowledge and talents and personality would be preserved and that together they would have the opportunity to try to accomplish that which I will not have accomplished prior to my death.

  I don't think the term Doppelganger is appropriate for the WT concept of resurrection due to two reasons. My impression is the same as that stated in the following quotes from Wikipedia. 1) "In fiction a fiction and mythology, a doppelgänger is often portrayed as a ghostly or paranormal phenomenon and usually seen as a harbinger of bad luck. Other traditions and stories equate a doppelgänger with an evil twin." The WT resurrection does not have any of those characteristics. 2) "A doppelgänger is a biologically unrelated look-alike, or a double, of a living person. [See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelg%C3%A4nger .] If by "living person" one means the person who was copied would still exist during the same time (or part of the time) the copy exists, then that is different from the WT idea. In the WT the one who dies no longer exists as a person at the same the copy exists. Instead the surviving remains of the dead person is likely used as some of the materials in the construction of the copy; with the rest of the material having already become part of something else (such as having been incorporated into the body of an organism which ate it). One won't see the dead person's body lying around at the same time one sees a living copy of the pre-dead person.
  
• 
  156

  Remembering Rutherford

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

  rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

  [220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  In my post in which I quoted the Children book I neglected to actually quote what the book said about college and other higher education.

  Ch. 1 of the book in talking about the fictional characters (before they learn of the WT books) regarding their education says: "John Alden had reached the age of sixteen years. Eunice Rogers was fourteen years of age. Both had completed the study course in the country public school. They must receive further education. John was sent away to college. Eunice entered a seminary for young ladies. A four-year course of study had been planned for each one of them." That is interesting that they are said to go to advanced schooling at such young ages. Later in the chapter the book describes the characters experience of their higher learning and portrays it in a negative light (at least from the JW point of view).

  Note it says the following.

  "Eunice, ... For four years you have been closely associated with those who are given over to the lighter things of life. We both can well bear testimony to the fact that the schools for both men and women instill into the mind of the pupil the theory of evolution of the human race, substituting that tradition proclaimed by such men as Darwin for the sure Word of Almighty God. You have withstood that seductive influence and have disregarded the sneers and reproaches that have fallen upon you and to which all persons who manifest their belief in the inspired Scriptures are subjected. I noted at the study this morning that you still firmly hold to the early teachings we have received from our parents in our homes. You have withstood the influence

  17

  of the modern educators, who would turn young men and young women away from the early instruction of their parents. Truly, then, you have been and are 'Blessed with victory'.

  ...

  You have told me that you were required to attend religious service while at the seminary; that the congregational meetings, and the Sunday morning service in particular, were a dress parade having the earmarks of a social gathering; that the minister seldom mentioned the Bible and never made any attempt to explain it, but talked chiefly of evolution, politics and social problems, quoting liberally from books of worldly writers, and that the entire tendency was to discredit the Bible. Well do I understand and appreciate what you have told me. A like condition exists at all colleges, I believe. Such were the conditions at the college where I have been attending for the past four years. Almost all of the professors, including the ecclesiastical instructors, are higher critics and rely on science and the wisdom of men to lead them to higher things, but I observe that they do not reach great heights."

  18

  "Yes, John, often have I propounded to myself the question: Why should a man call himself a minister or a doctor of divinity, claiming to be a servant of God, and never attempting even to instruct the people as to the meaning of the Scriptures? Probably it is because he does not understand the Scriptures himself; but he should not pretend to teach them. The minister at the seminary appeared to be quite popular with almost all who attended his church meetings, and the attendants of his social gatherings spoke many flattering words about him and to him; but I must say that often I have felt so out of place at those so-called 'church services and social gatherings' that I have wanted to run away that I might be alone and meditate upon what our parents have taught us in our homes. From what I have learned it appears that the seminaries and colleges have practically forgotten God, and this includes the ministers and theological teachers. As a result of such teaching almost all of the students have become agnostics or infidels."

  Later the character John introduces Eunice to Rutherford's book (it appears that the Children book quotes from Rutherford's books extensively and there is an illustration of the two adults reading them). The Children book says the following.

  "I would like to devote some of the time during the months that immediately follow to our studies together. I have come into possession of a number of books, all published by the same publishing society, which claim to be of great aid in the study of the Bible. We have both studied the Bible some, but
  

  there is much for us to learn."

  Chapter 2 says the following.

  'In these latter days the colleges teach evolution concerning man, his creation, and his development, and ignore entirely the Word of God. They are wise in their own conceits, and concerning such the Lord in his Word says: "He taketh the wise in their own craft-

  44

  iness; and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night." (Job 5:13,14) "The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them?" — Jeremiah 8:9."These scriptures, written long ago, certainly and accurately describe the conditions that exist in the colleges today," said John to Eunice. "There is scarcely a professor in the college where I attended that has any faith whatsoever in God and the Bible. They teach all the young men and young women to ignore God and the Bible. Recently I noticed in the Literary Digest that a poll had been taken of the preachers in the United States and a large majority of them are evolutionists, deny the inspiration of the Scriptures, and yet claim to be ministers of the gospel."

  "Certainly, John," said Eunice. "This proves how wonderfully we have been favored by the Lord in giving us parents who have taught us from our youth up to have confidence in God and in the Bible, which is His Word. Without faith it is impossible to please God, as it is written in the Scriptures."

  "That is true, Eunice, and you are a woman of true and genuine faith. Seeing

  45

  that the professors and other teachers in the schools have ignored the Bible and teach that man is a creature of evolution, I suggest that in our next study we give consideration to the Bible teaching concerning the origin of man and the course that men have taken, and learn just why the present miserable conditions exist amongst the peoples and nations of the earth." 'Chapter 9 says the following.

  'Generally those of the world who are parents desire to provide their children with a college education and a training in religion, commerce, and politics, with the ability to make money and shine in the world. Good that is enduring does not result from such worldly teaching. It is of far greater importance to the child to teach it God's Word, that it may gain knowledge, wisdom and understanding, which lead to endless blessings: "How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!" (Proverbs 16:16) "Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it." — Proverbs 8:10,11. He who follows the course of religion, politics and commerce usually ends his career in sorrow.'

  Chapter 10 says the following.

  'Satan knows that his time is short, and therefore he is desperately trying to turn all persons, including the children, against God. (Revelation 12:12,17) Therefore Satan influences public officials and others to compel little children to indulge in idolatrous practices by bowing down to some image or thing, such as saluting flags and hailing men, and which is in direct violation of God's commandment. (Exodus 20:1-5) That is why in the last few years rules are made and enforced in the public schools compelling children of the Jonadabs, who are in a covenant to do God's will, to indulge in the idolatrous practice of flag-saluting and hailing men. It is the influence of that subtle foe, the Devil, that has brought about this state of affairs, and now Satan's agents cause great persecution to be brought upon the parents and the children who insist on obeying the commandments of God.'